Jason Weber (00:01)
G'day and welcome to Two Coaches and a Coffee. I'm Jason Weber and I'm here with Darren Burgess. Well, not really. We're still in two states, but I'm back in the land of the employed and doing work. So no more traveling Darren. You don't have to feel bad that I'm in an espresso bar because I no longer am. I'm back in my virtual office.
Darren (00:07)
Thank you.
Nice to see you. I'm in Adelaide. are match day minus two from a big showdown where we play the local rivals on Saturday night. So yeah, here we go.
Jason Weber (00:32)
Yeah, for anyone listening overseas,
that's the grudge match. That's the local grudge match.
Darren (00:39)
It's probably, know that Melbourne people don't understand it and I'm from Sydney so I didn't really understand it either, but it's equal to any of the rivalry they've been involved with whether that's Arsenal, Tottenham or Liverpool, Everton, like in terms of the, not necessarily the hatred, but just the rivalry, which is good. Yeah, yeah.
Jason Weber (00:56)
or the passion that there is hatred
when you play those games. So Fremantle West Coast like there's hatred when you hear the crowd going and in AFL because we're close to the boundary and certainly in the older grounds, you used to be right next to the stand back in the day. could hear people the vitriolic, faking ⁓ words coming out like they're into it. so much you're up and going. It's going to be a tough.
Darren (01:05)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, they're right into a toad. No, we'll see. Here we go.
Jason Weber (01:26)
tough hit out but we're starting to come out. Remember we talked when I was in, probably the last one was in Florence, we were talking about we're in that third, that latter third of the season but now we're coming into the home straight like you have four or five games out from the finish. Teams are really looking at like getting ready for finals or getting ready to exit.
Darren (01:27)
Yeah.
Yeah, and with that comes the dreaded sort of contract talk. So in the AFL, ⁓ for those who don't know, most of the assistant coaches, fitness coach, performance managers have something in their contract which says if your contract expires at the end of the year, August 1 is the date. So the clubs need to let their assistant coaches and staff know by August 1 if they're going to be re-contracted. So I have had a few calls in the last sort of two weeks from
Jason Weber (01:55)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Stop now.
Darren (02:20)
people asking advice on how to approach that conversation and even calls from people saying, yeah, that they don't think they're going to be renewed. And so it's a really tough time. I think probably the first thing to say before I get into how you might handle this situation, because we've all been in it, is it probably doesn't... For people graduating or even working in gyms aspiring to work in the...
⁓ in the elite sports industry. This is it. If your contract's up and it happens to be when you get a bad run of injuries through bad luck or if you get a coach who doesn't necessarily see things the way you do, you're out of a job and everything that you ⁓ try... No, no. It's just sorry your contract's up. Your contract just happens to be up at that year.
Jason Weber (03:06)
Yeah.
And there's no recourse. There's no discussion.
Darren (03:20)
We've had a few injuries ⁓ or we're not happy with the performance of the team. So because your contract's up, we need to make change and it's you. So it might not necessarily be through bad performance, but it also, yeah, I mean, it could be, but it might also be through bad luck. it's a high risk industry. So for people who are aspiring to get in, that's great. And we love the industry. But you have to understand these are brutal conversations.
Jason Weber (03:47)
Yeah, but I think there's a point to make. Not so much about the conversations come and they come unexpected times. They came to me unexpected and without much explanation, to be very honest, like contracts finished. That's it. Like and and now that's it done. But what I would say and I remember after I got kicked off the bus.
at Freo, we had a conversation, your old podcast, we spoke that week. I've never listened to it. I probably should at some point. ⁓ But very, very raw. But what I have learned since then, which is a failure of mine, which I would counsel young practitioners, is I would check your emotional connection to the job. Now, by that, what do I mean?
Darren (04:19)
Did
Yeah, it was.
Jason Weber (04:43)
I had two jobs pretty much over 20 years. So you're there for a long time, like it more than a decade, both gigs. Well, close to a decade, one and over a decade with the other. You get connected to it to the point that your identity, you actually sort of say to yourself, Hey, I'm Jason Webber, the high performance manager of whatever, whatever. And you don't verbalize it, but it does connect. And when it's suddenly gone.
Darren (04:52)
Mm.
does.
Jason Weber (05:14)
It's problematic. Now, I didn't even realize, didn't even realize that that happened. But it is something that I think people should like. We talk about well-being and health, ⁓ mental health, and I didn't have a mental health problem, but there's no question I didn't handle that really well personally on the other side. And it's not because I didn't have a mental health issue. But the issue was, I think
The way you kind of said it a moment ago struck me is you've just got to accept, you've got to know this is coming. Now, I probably thought I was immune to it at some level. I don't know that I ever verbalized that, but I reckon if you were coming into this gig, you've got to be, even if you're in a job for a fair while, think if the closer longer in it, the closer you are at the end is probably the thing to think of and to ensure, keep yourself in. They're going.
Darren (06:05)
You know, I this
I don't think there's too many people who haven't experienced it or at the very least experienced ⁓ that feeling of the contract ending and a bit of uncertainty around, you know, around whether you're going to get re-signed. So as much as you can say, ⁓ well, you know that going in and that would be my argument to people is say, I understand what you're what you're walking into. ⁓
Jason Weber (06:17)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
but I'll be wet.
Darren (06:37)
It
doesn't make it necessarily easier. if you choose to work in the sporting industry, there are things you just have to take on. And that is weekend work, contract renewals, job interviews, which we'll get into because you want to have a chat about that. So how to negotiate it, how to...
Jason Weber (06:54)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
Darren (07:07)
how to handle it, I would just be saying to folks, look, understand that that's what it is trying when you are in a position of strength and the most you only ever get one chance to negotiate, try and negotiate the best deal that you can ⁓ for you so that when it does, when the knife does fall and it will, ⁓ yeah, it's you've at least got your pound of flesh out of the organization as well.
Jason Weber (07:33)
Yeah, yeah. that
and no matter even how well you negotiate, like like you said, once the contract comes on end, that's it. But it is something.
Darren (07:44)
Yeah, can't, I
don't think you can, you don't cut. The harsh side of me says, well, don't complain if you signed a three year deal and in three years time, it doesn't get renewed. I'm not sure what, you know, what it, so there is that aspect of it, but then there's a real emotional, personal side of it, which makes it real and hard. And, and, you know, I got sucked when there was no contract end. So
Jason Weber (07:54)
Yeah.
Darren (08:12)
you know, even though I sort of got a heads up about three months before that it was probably coming, there was no contract ending. it doesn't necessarily have to come at the same time as a contract end. But yeah, it's a really tough time. And those people who are going through it, I just encourage you to speak to people and try and get as much support around you as you can. And we've spoken spoken about side hustles a bit. So this is where they come in handy.
Jason Weber (08:22)
Yeah.
And the last.
Yeah. Well,
I think too, what I would say is for someone who goes through it, I reckon use your network. Like I certainly lent on Darren when it happened to me and we spoke when you left one of your, certainly your last gig in the UK. We spoke a lot, but I think it's reflect on, reflect on where you're at. Like, is there any, what was your performance like? Was there part of it? Was that part of it? Be honest and be hard on yourself. ⁓
Darren (08:56)
We did.
Jason Weber (09:07)
And then trust in what like you're not defined by the job, you're defined by skills and what you can bring, which I've certainly encouraged myself to learn that, I'm actually still a good coach and I've got better as a coach ⁓ and as a practitioner in other areas of our profession. ⁓ So, yeah, focusing on that, right. It's still at the end of the day that the gear you're wearing is a badge and the badge comes and goes. So whether you're wearing an AFL or you're an APL or you're an NFL, whatever.
Darren (09:28)
Absolutely.
Jason Weber (09:37)
It's going to come and go. But pros still remain pros. In fact, to that extent, I probably just like I had a conversation earlier today about coaches and whether they're prepared to work with elite athletes or maybe development athletes or other athletes that that may fall somewhere in between that. Given that, like I went from AFL, I've coached high school, I'm coaching
Darren (09:42)
Exactly.
Jason Weber (10:05)
Institute of Sports stuff now around Olympic gold medalist, Paralympians, all sorts of stuff. I still think the highest quality you hold yourself to is how you deal with the least of athletes. I think a really good coach is the one who can coach rehab and kids. That's the hardest stuff. And that's where I think you got to look to be able to take your most pride in the quality of your work. A bricklayer's work is how he lays the wall.
Darren (10:15)
So.
Jason Weber (10:35)
Someone can say it's a shit world at night, it's quality, mate. Here's what it is.
Darren (10:39)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, okay, you get laid off or your contract isn't renewed and then you start applying for jobs and you ⁓ get a couple of interviews lined up. So, somehow you give me some tips for how I might get a job with you or I might stand out from other people in a interview.
Jason Weber (10:42)
So why don't we...
Yeah.
Well, let's start
at the beginning. There is always the hustle. I some of us are better than others at connecting directly with coaches and that's high-end stuff, network. But the majority of us have to apply. And the first thing's resume. Seriously, I looked at 80 resumes this week for a role that I've got going. And I'm perplexed.
as some of the stuff people are putting in and how they're structuring. Like you can go on LinkedIn or anywhere and go like, how do I write a resume? How do I write like plausible resume? Like some of it is unbelievable. And I don't know if I'm biased. I don't want a big cheesy photo of you. I'm not interested. Like I'm not interested in how many of your athletes went pro or went to the NFL or did something else.
Like I want to hear about your skill sets. I want to hear about what you bring. ⁓ I don't care where you went to high school, right? I don't care that you were captain of the debating team or whatever. Like keep it simple. Like highlight the work you did. ⁓ I also don't care what clubs you visited. Like people are putting on their resume. I visited this club and this club and this club. Like.
Darren (12:12)
Yep.
Thank
Jason Weber (12:30)
Mate, I don't care. You were there for 24 hours. Like we want to know about the work. mate, insane, insane. The other one that I will say, and this is not the first time I've come across it. I've come across this a number of times. What you write in a resume, make sure it is truthful. It sounds absurd.
Darren (12:33)
I've actually not had that, but that's true.
Wow, okay.
Yep.
Jason Weber (13:00)
But people are stretching the truth. Like, and I'm saying we're stretching it to the end of, you know, plausible deniability. people are putting in, I looked at a resume the other day and I was sitting with a good mate of mine, Michael Dobbin, and we were looking at this resume and this guy had on it. I was the rehab assistant at Fremantle Football Club in certain years.
Darren (13:13)
Yeah, okay.
Yep.
Jason Weber (13:29)
We looked at each other and went, hang on. We were there. Right. Dog at the time was my senior. Yeah. Dog was my senior. He was running the senior program. He had control of that. I was obviously overseeing it. Another one of our teammates, our staff that worked together, we were very, very tight group who's now running his own AFL program. He was running rehab, but I'm like, who is this guy? We've never seen him.
Darren (13:36)
No.
Jason Weber (14:00)
So I don't know who he is, but you've got to be accurate. I saw a resume, this one would be 20 years ago, and the guy quoted a bunch of work that I'd written about publicly. And he was quoting back to me in the resume, quoting my work, but he did it wrong. I'm like, what are you doing, mate? Like, do you not know who's on the interview panel? Like, don't.
Darren (14:00)
Wow.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Jason Weber (14:30)
Don't feed me back my own work, because I had some specific acronyms. So I was like, I just made up something stupid by whatever it was, you know, ABC. And that's not that I care that it was, but it was like the lack of truth or the claiming of things that you're not. Like that is ludicrous. So I look at that resume and what do want to do? I just want to throw it out. So you can't even get in the door. You resume your ticket to the dance.
Darren (14:40)
What about?
Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
So how,
okay, so that's what not to do. What do you do on your resumes, on your CV? What are the ones that work?
Jason Weber (15:05)
My understanding the way,
so the one I've written that has successfully got me the last two jobs I've gone for in the last 12 months. Bearing in mind, I knocked one of them back, but you're very clear on your name and all the rest of it, contact details. You've got a short paragraph that outlines who you are and what you're about. mean short, like it's not 2500 words.
And then you go go straight to your jobs. Your most recent job first, clearly stated bullet points about what you did. Like what were you responsible for there? I was responsible for this, this, this, this. You have to make it super easy for a person to read. You don't need blazing colors. Having bright red, like people like, it's got to be smooth. You've got to encourage people to read. Use a nice simple font.
Don't make it funky, but jobs detailed. So I can see clearly in these years, you've had three or four different jobs. Be careful with gaps. Like don't leave a gap of two years. Like most of us are pretty reasonable at maths. You can figure out, hang on, 2002 to 2004, and then you go to 2008. But what happened for four years? Where were you? What were you doing?
Darren (16:18)
Okay.
Yeah. Yeah.
Jason Weber (16:31)
Your resume is
meant to answer questions. It's not meant to provide more questions.
Darren (16:38)
Yep. Yeah, okay.
Jason Weber (16:40)
I think the
other thing that I talked to a couple of the young folks I work with that getting a job is about fear. Right. It's about removing the fear of the person doing the interview. So they're all fearful for their job. If I hire the wrong person, I'm in trouble. Right. Coming from the CEO, CEO doesn't want trouble. He wants somebody who comes in and removes fear because they're competent.
You need to instill that in your resume. Like I've been here, I've done this. If you've got question marks, if you've put weird stuff in that you haven't really done, it's going to get found out and you're going to get called. If you make to an interview, you're going to get called out. So that, that element of being truthful, like you've either got experience or you don't. That's as simple as it is for me anyway.
Darren (17:17)
Let's see. ⁓
Yep.
Yep. Yeah, that makes sense. think.
Jason Weber (17:40)
Mate, you've
read a lot of, you've put a ton of stuff on in the last 12 months. Does any of what I said, does it resonate? it, like what impresses you? How do I get a job at Darren Burgess?
Darren (17:46)
Yeah, Yes, think
the.
So the CVs that stand out are the ones that are brief in particular. So I like, you know, maybe just logos of the places that you've worked so that you can just have a quick glance. Oh, yeah, I know that place. I know that place. And then maybe the role title and two or three of your responsibilities. So I know, OK, that's what that person did. Once I know that, that's kind of it, really, because then
I can go and do my own research. if I got your CV, Jason, the first thing I'd do is phone someone from Fremantle and someone probably just Fremantle and then someone at Waze that I know. And by the way, we had, like you said, four jobs advertised. I ran about this time last year and one of the guys came from the Melbourne Rebels. They were shut down. I didn't know anyone at the Melbourne Rebels.
Jason Weber (18:53)
Yeah.
Darren (18:54)
So I went, ⁓ I wonder who's going to know someone at the Melbourne Rebels that I can ask about it. Jason, do you know someone at the Melbourne Rebels? And you said, yep, give this guy a call. I gave him a call. ⁓ Most recently, I had a international applicant ⁓ for a temporary job that we've got advertised. And I went on LinkedIn and found somebody who worked at the organization, reached out on LinkedIn and said, ⁓ can I speak to you about Jason Webber? Yep, no problem.
her a bunch of questions and she answered them. No problem. I'll do the rest. I won't even look at your references, who you put as your references. I'll go on them elsewhere. ⁓ But don't tell me you're driven. Don't tell me you just put the logo, the places that you've worked and the things that you are competent at. So it might be GPS analysis, ⁓ R, Python and Tableau or something like that if we're looking at a sports science.
Jason Weber (19:30)
Nah, I'm not.
Darren (19:53)
So then I know, okay, well, this person, don't have to worry about that. don't have to worry about that. Or at least it'll lead me to ask a few more questions in the interview. So keeping it simple, keeping it really obvious. It's not a standout with, like I said, maybe logos rather than a whole bunch of words. What happens now is, as you know, AI can filter out in some places. The second thing is our people and cultural people at the Adelaide Croats will do a first cull. So.
Jason Weber (20:21)
Yeah.
Darren (20:22)
and that'll be a colour based on what we say, so it might be university educated and five years in elite sport.
So they'll call down all the people who haven't got that. So make sure that it's clear what your experiences are. And then in the interview, just be prepared to think on your feet and ⁓ people are gonna get nervous. I'd never put anybody down or not hire people because they're a bit nervous. Of course, everyone's nervous in interviews. I get nervous in interviews. So ⁓ it's more ⁓ be confident, assertive.
Jason Weber (20:39)
Damn.
Darren (20:59)
Make sure you tell people what you know and what you don't know. And that would be about it. Don't be a prick. I had having dinner with I won't say the name, but probably in the top five.
Jason Weber (21:07)
No.
Darren (21:17)
I said, one of the top five greatest sports people on the planet in their sport. So if you asked anybody in this particular sport, let's use soccer. wasn't soccer, but who are the top five players of all time? it might be, know, Pele, Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo and Puskas or something like that. It was one of them. So it was a real privilege and an honor. And one of the people who were at dinner said, ⁓ look, I don't really follow your sport, but
Jason Weber (21:23)
Wow.
Darren (21:46)
you're really, really humble. And he said, isn't it harder to be a prick? And so, you know, just don't think you're better than anybody else. And he could not have been more impressive in terms of his humility. It was so refreshing. So yeah, make sure that comes across in an interview.
Jason Weber (22:02)
I think one
of the first things I'm always looking for is this, can I work with this person? Doesn't matter how brilliant they are. I'm who I am, but we need to fit into our team is one thing. What I would say, because we're getting close to our time, mate, I'll just quickly talk on the interview process. What I would say to everybody, and I do this myself, is think up a bunch of questions.
Darren (22:11)
Yeah.
Jason Weber (22:32)
Stand in a room by yourself and answer them. And I don't mean think about them. I mean stand there and speak. Because the feedback loop before it out of your mouth and back into your ears is practice. And I get this. got one of my students at the moment. making them present a whole research thing next week. But I'm saying go and practice over the weekend. You've got to present this next week to three PhD people.
Darren (22:35)
Yeah.
Jason Weber (23:01)
But you're going to do it. But practice because as you say the words that you need to have already evaluated what's coming out of your mouth, you just talk. It gets loose and disconnected. Like I would practice the big interviews, particularly the big one I did last year. I practice. I stood in my office and I thought about the questions and I had my presentation, all that. And I.
Darren (23:12)
Yes.
Jason Weber (23:27)
I went through what are they going to ask? If I show this, what would they ask about it? What's a downside? What might they hit me up about? Practice it, practice it, practice it. You got to become good at it because getting a job, being in a job interview is not something you'd necessarily do all the time. And I would say that of any presentation you have to do, practice, practice, practice, because it's like, like Joe Rogan's really good on his feet because he's practiced. That's his job.
Darren (23:36)
Yep.
Hmm.
Jason Weber (23:56)
Man, that's not our job to necessarily be quizzed by people. I remember back in the day doing a physiology exam that I had to do as a verbal. You had to sit in front of a board and you got jawed. I was horrific. Horrific. I walked out and went, I actually knew all the answers to all of that. Why didn't I say them? Because you were just frozen in the moment of like, So practice.
Darren (24:20)
Yeah.
Exactly, exactly.
Jason Weber (24:26)
Practice
people practice practice practice. All right, mate. We're at the end of the show people keep telling me they like it short. So let's keep it short ⁓ All the very best for the Derby, mate all the very best for the local hit out and We'll look forward to seeing you in the great state of WA in a couple of weeks
Darren (24:35)
Keep it short, mate. Good to see you back in the land of Oz.
Thanks, bud.
I'll speak next week, See you, bud. Bye.
Jason Weber (24:49)
Cheers mate, speak soon.
