Jason Weber (00:13)
G'day and welcome to Two Coaches and a Coffee. Darren in Italy, Jason in Perth. How you doing, mate?
Darren (00:21)
Going all right. Did you just say before we hit record that you are six shots in? I'm on my first or second for the day at 9.30.
Jason Weber (00:24)
Ha
No, no, you didn't hear me.
I think if I was being honest, it would be 10 shots for the day.
Darren (00:36)
What's the average Weber coffee consumption?
Jason Weber (00:40)
I
but it had like one coffee, but this has got four shots. yeah, I've got a shot. My sympathetic nervous system has been in overdrive for so long, coffee just bounces off me. I fall asleep. If you and I weren't talking about stuff that is so compelling, I would fall asleep in the afternoon. In the afternoon sun of Perth, Western Australia, I would fall asleep.
Darren (00:47)
Yeah, okay. That's all right.
Yeah, okay.
I can't even...
Yeah, fair enough. I don't blame you. I don't blame you. For today, so firstly, this morning, I battled 35 minutes, a petrol bowser in Italy filling up the car, the hybrid car, so I am looking after the environment, filling up the car. My God. And then as I exited the petrol station, because it's all in Italian and my Italian is not fantastic, and they have this sort of weird...
There was no attendance. Petrol station isn't open. This sort of system where you just do it yourself and everybody else is getting along with it and I'm battling through. Anyway, then I exited the, it's got nothing to with performance. I exited the petrol station, got pulled over by the cops for no, he didn't speak any English and my Italian is just, bit by bit. So we had this awkward conversation. I handed over a shit load of documents. He went back to his car, came back to me.
seven, eight, nine minutes later and said, off you go. So I've got no idea what happened. Someone could come into this room any minute now and come and take me back. anyway, yeah, so it was a...
Jason Weber (02:03)
the storm the room. Don't you just say
Juventus Burgess Juventus Burgess
Darren (02:08)
Well,
yeah, well, no, not Burgess, but Juventus, yeah, I tried that, but maybe he was a Torino or a Milan supporter because it didn't. yeah, yeah. Yeah, so.
Jason Weber (02:17)
Oh, it's that close. Because it is low. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, Torina, so it's
conceivable that you were the enemy.
Darren (02:25)
It's just one of the, you know, people talk about what's the most difficult part of the job and the change and everything. All of these things come into it. anyway.
Jason Weber (02:33)
Can I
add a quick little thing, mate? Look, I'm doing some work with a team overseas, but one of the things you talk about, we're talking about is cognitive fatigue and how hard it is to discuss. So say you're communicating with a coach, a physio and your S and C team. They've all got three different languages. We're all describing the same stuff, but the effort you have to put into if you're a coach and you're not on the same wavelength and your physios are on another wavelength, but.
I quite often say them, but how would you go if you had to do that in Italian? So you got to think about the problem. Think about the problem in English, convert it to Italian, tell somebody in the wrong, you know, the wrong lingo that it's the problem. Hear the answer back, convert it back to English. Think about it. It's exhausting, mate. You must be tired.
Darren (03:09)
Yeah.
it.
Mate,
it's relentless and not only that, so I'm just looking back at the calendar that's off screen there, but our last day off was nine days ago and our next day off is we're at six days away. So we will have done 16, 17 days straight. So all those people in
players association mandated leagues, is basically every other league in the world that are listening to this. Yeah, it's look, it's fine. And you know that when you sign up, it's like what you and I talk about when people apply for jobs and say, but I don't want to work weekends. And you're in the wrong, wrong industry. So when I came over here, I knew that, but when you actually live it amongst all of those things that you just said, it's a
Jason Weber (03:46)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
the end of the wrong game.
Darren (04:06)
Yeah, you've certainly got to find some time in the day and in the week for yourself otherwise. Otherwise you're struggling.
Jason Weber (04:09)
Take a breath. Or
you just start drinking 10 shots of coffee a day and fry your neuromuscular system.
Darren (04:20)
I have adapted to the espresso system a little bit, but I do like a long coffee and they just look at me with disdain here still anyway.
Jason Weber (04:27)
I
know, but a long coffee just gives you time to contemplate. So if we're gonna slow down and just have a like, give me five minutes to think about the day, take a breath. You do need a longer coffee. can't like, I love an espresso. Espresso bar in Italy is great, but it's quick, it's fast. It's chop, chop, chop, chop, chop. But we need it sometimes.
Darren (04:31)
Exactly. Oh, yeah
Listen, yeah.
I'm all
about the longer coffee. I do like the canola with the coffee though, so I'm really adapting.
Jason Weber (04:53)
Thank you. the whole load went along.
I still look like Santa Claus after Christmas, so I really shouldn't be talking about canola. But let's talk about something. I want to talk about your little comment before, because we had this chat beforehand, maybe that's how all this podcast started, is you and me chatting going, should we just push record on this? Anyway, we talked before about a subject which I think folks would like to hear about.
You introduce it because it's yours and your baby and I'll just be the normal argumentative human.
Darren (05:24)
Yeah.
So I was listening to, and I've just Googled it, um, prepare like a pro podcast. Um, which I don't, uh, don't always listen to, but it's good, good podcast. the reason why I was listening to is it came up on my, um, algorithm because a good friend of mine and a fantastic strength and he's more than a strength coach, a performance coach, Greg King was on it. And, uh, yeah, so
Jason Weber (05:32)
⁓ yes.
Isn't that good? Good God.
Darren (05:50)
Kingi's been in and out of AFL and soccer, but has been mainly with soccer for the last five, six years. he's won more titles than most have had coffees during the day, except you. So he's won titles with Adelaide United, with Yokohama, and now back to back with Shanghai, with Kevin Musket in China. Anyway, he was talking about how he doesn't do...
Jason Weber (06:02)
off.
Okay.
Darren (06:14)
It doesn't focus on regular speed exposure with his players. it got me thinking about, have over here in Uwe, one of the fitness coaches that works with us, also is very against that because of the unnecessary risk that might be associated with that. So.
Whereas Kingi was like, no, I just don't think it's necessary. I don't think it's risky, but I don't think it's necessary for hamstring protection, which is the main reason why 99 % of clubs or practitioners do it. Because a lot of the good research by OPAR Timmons and their crew is strength plus speed exposure equals protection. So it was an interesting philosophy because I could probably give you.
I don't know, 70 cases, just straight from my drop box here of people who've gone through and done hamstring rehabs without hitting 90 % and mainly involved in soccer, or people who have gone months without exposures over 90 % and have lived completely injury free. So,
Jason Weber (07:26)
Yeah.
Darren (07:28)
And how did we do this 15 years ago? We did it without any technology. So it was just a really interesting discussion. Yeah, something like that. But yeah, it was an interesting discussion from King in. He just said, and I'm paraphrasing, but I don't focus on it. I don't think it's always necessary.
Jason Weber (07:34)
Yeah.
15, more like 20 now, was 20 years ago. Just remember how old we are.
Darren (07:55)
Every now and then we'll do a session if it's getting really out of hand, but I don't think it's always necessary. We've discussed here before rehabs with Spanish players who have just, just calm down. Just give me one day training before. And these are players with two week calf injuries and no, no, I just need to train the day before and then I'll be right and they get through.
Jason Weber (08:17)
Yeah. So let's argue it. Well, mean, yeah, I'm going to go. Let's go back to first principles. So why does a hamstring injury occur? Now, we don't have a definitive. Like we've talked before about being honest about what we measure and what we know. I don't think we know exactly what caused the hamstring injury. It could be fatigue. It could be weakness. It could be
Darren (08:19)
Over to you Jason.
Jason Weber (08:45)
a subacute injury that occurs in the game. Somebody gets a cork, they start to run differently. Accumulated fatigues always one But you look at the work Johann Lathi is doing at the moment, and he's doing some, he's running some courses through, I saw him up in Denmark or somewhere up there, all through the Nordic domain. But he is looking at a plethora of information, like more than I think
is physically possible in most domains. Like he's doing surface EMGs, he's looking at three dimensional information, like where the pelvis is at. And I think it's great stuff because he's really trying to identify what is the problem here? Is there a risk that we're not quantifying in general, bearing in mind that most environments are doing isometric strengths, eccentric hamstrings, and then concluding.
Darren (09:21)
Yep.
Jason Weber (09:38)
Right. We've got a sprint. So I think the notion that we have all the answers in the first place is probably incorrect. And I think that the differences between people are probably quite a lot. Like why does one hamstring occur versus another and they might be the same injury?
Darren (09:41)
Okay. Okay.
Jason Weber (09:53)
Why does someone blow their T junction up? I think there's a lot of discussions. think that to expect that the simplicity of, hey, if we just sprint,
Because the idea is if we just sprint, we're building a tolerance to what we might do in the game. Well, that's a logic. don't dismiss it. but I don't think it can be considered absolute. Surely. Like I think there's too many people like my short experience in football. Same thing. I've seen the Spanish do some crazy things. And as you said, play on no problem. Like.
Darren (10:10)
Yes.
No.
Jason Weber (10:31)
do nothing. And they just letting the tissue heal and the tissue is healed and we go back and they play.
Darren (10:37)
and
we'll be
Yeah, it's, sorry, I just had a quick interruption, but I'll get back on trying to thought. We are under this...
Jason Weber (10:42)
That's a good one.
Darren (10:48)
I was going to say disillusionment, but that's not the right word. are, I think, misguided. Misconception that we can predict injuries when we discuss that we want to reduce injury risk, that's what we want to do. So if that's what we are trying to do, then exposing the player to repeated maximal speed so that there's no shock in games is a...
Jason Weber (10:53)
Disconception?
Darren (11:13)
is an appropriate thing to do and is a well-established thing to do. And I think the research is reasonable in that space. but clearly there are many, many, many cases and maybe just as many who don't as who do, particularly when you look at global sport, not just the bubble that we sometimes live in Australia, I guess.
there's probably just as many who don't do that regular exposure to speed and the same hamstring rates occur. So what is going on in that? Go.
Jason Weber (11:41)
Yeah, could ask a question then, mate? Question,
knowing Greg King, I know him a little bit, but you know him well, do you think Greg's drill design puts him closer to game-like situations where he might get a better representation? Last week we argued, discussed, or last fortnight, we discussed Martin little, Martin Duchesne and Little's paper about slave to GPS. And in that, Martin argued that, well,
If people just operating to norms that are random or are not specific to the team, then it's not appropriate. do you think, do you know, does Greg, is his drill design in such a way that it achieves what he would do? Like you said, a plausible exposure to what the players might expect in a game.
Darren (12:27)
So this is the question.
If you do a whole bunch of other training sessions, can you get to the point where the hamstring muscle is exposed to enough variation and enough load so that even if you don't sprint the hamstring in training, but you are required to run down the wing or chase somebody in a game and you haven't done that in three weeks.
that shock factor, the hamstring can still handle that. That's the question. And so where you and I are saying, yes, it can. But the question, I guess, is, are we reducing the risk more if we expose the player to that? I actually don't know the answer to it. Logically, it makes sense to me. But I've seen so many instances where
Jason Weber (12:55)
Handle it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Darren (13:21)
It just doesn't. Now we track that here at UVA. They didn't track it before I came here, but we track it now. And I could imagine in the past here, there must've been months where people didn't get exposure and they didn't get injured. throughout all of, know, elite footballing clubs and other sporting clubs, that's the case. So I just don't know. So what are we trying to tell the people to take home from it? you...
Jason Weber (13:33)
Yeah.
Darren (13:44)
Believe in it, do it, but if you don't believe in it, I don't think you're exposing the hamstring or any other muscle factor to any greater risk.
Jason Weber (13:52)
But I think you've got to at some point understand that they are plausibly strong enough within the bounds of what we know and they are capable of some speed. Do you need to do it every week? I can't say that's the truth. What I would side with just because I know you've got to go in a few minutes, I am going to just jump in on the Johann Larpy thing. So when I met with Johann last year and we discussed a whole lot of running stuff and I shared some speed sick stuff and
Darren (14:06)
Mm.
Jason Weber (14:18)
I know I'm the biased individual in that space, but what we can show categorically is the athletes that as they go faster, they have nice balanced symmetry in their running. And then as they get quicker and quicker, it splits and we get a divergent pattern. I can't tell you, now I'm just saying we've observed this and we've observed it in rehab and we know we can fix it in most rehab cases. But what I'm discussing and I discussed with Stu McMillan only a week ago is
Like is it plausible that athletes lose coordination at high speed and when they start to wrestle over place, then becomes a problem because the muscle's not working in the way we would expect because the athletes fallen apart technically. Now I don't know, I don't have any absolutes, but I think what I would encourage people to do, like I think Darren's right, we don't have to take the absolute, but I think we should keep looking.
We need to keep trying to understand more about what we're doing, which again, comes back to what Boucher was saying. Understand more about our game and what's happening.
Darren (15:16)
Mm.
Yeah, I think that's, I remember in the really early days, so I'm talking 2013, the early days, I sat with Dave Opar and he said, and I said, mate, because we did have a bunch of hamstrings early days at Port Adelaide. And I said, what do you reckon is going on? What do you reckon? And he said, look, as a general rule, just expose the muscle to as much strength and variation of stimulus.
as you possibly can and it'll cope. And that's stuck with me. And I think he may have changed his or slightly altered his viewpoint in that a lot of their research says, you know, expose them to speed, expose them to strength, expose them to a certain level of strength, but they and we and everybody are not tracking.
all the other things that happen. what's the training type? they doing some offside of games, big field games? What positions are you getting that? So I think if you can expose the muscles to as many different scenarios as possible that you are going to replicate in the game, then you'll be okay.
Jason Weber (16:28)
prepare them. And we encourage everybody out there wearing a sports science badge to keep looking to figure out how we can explain more about our game and maybe look at those things. Can we quantify the difference between two different small sided games? like, and I don't mean the velocity, I don't mean the XLS and DLS, which are all just changes in fundamentally velocity.
can we actually know more about what the body's doing? That's the challenge we're laying down because all those young bikes that were born or came into work after 2015 who don't know the world without technology, they've got to start delivering more for us, Darren.
Darren (17:09)
Yeah, I have to run, ⁓ I want to talk next week about chaos theory and heart rate. So put that ⁓ on the agenda for next week. All right,
Jason Weber (17:10)
And you gotta go, mate.
Go, mate. You go and have another cannoli.
put that on the agenda. All right, mate, great to hear from you and you have a great rest of the day and
drink more coffee.
Darren (17:31)
Okay, thanks, fine, see ya.
